Kelvin Crosby: 0:06

Welcome to Investing in Accessibility a Samaritan Partners podcast. We're not waiting for change, we're investing in it. Join us as we speak with entrepreneurs and thought leaders that are focused on creating a more accessible world.

Kelvin Crosby: 0:28

Hey, it's good to see you, even though I can't see you. It's another beautiful day in the neighborhood and I'm so excited that you're here at Investing in Accessibility, and I'm so excited about today's guest and truly this is going to be an be an experience. It's gonna be full of laughter and we're gonna stumble over each other, but I tell you it's gonna be a fun show. But before I introduce you to our guest, our amazing guest I tell you she's awesome, let me introduce to my co-host, Chris Maher. How you doing, man?

Chris Maher: 1:03

Hey, Kelvin, good to be with you, my friend, how you doing.

Kelvin Crosby: 1:06

I'm doing great. I'm so excited about today's guest and I'm excited to really really show people that people with deafness can really do a podcast and live beyond their challenges, and I tell you what this lady doing I'm super excited to share with everybody. So kind of tell us, Chris, who is this lady that we're hinting at and how awesome is this lady?

Chris Maher: 1:36

Celvin. I couldn't agree more. I am super excited about this episode today because our guest is an amazing person and, without further ado, let's introduce Anne-Marie Killian, who is the CEO of TDI for Access, which is an amazing organization which we're going to get into momentarily. But, Anne-Marie, welcome to the show.

AnnMarie Killian: 1:59

Thank you so much, Kelvin and Chris. I'm so honored to be invited to this podcast. I've been following you when you post on LinkedIn. I've been enjoying expanding my horizons and listening in to some of the shows you have elevated to the platform so I want to thank you again for this invitation it's really a pleasure to be here with you both. Especially since I had the pleasure meeting you and witnessing how well you two behave when you're hanging out. I thought for sure there'd be some bantering taking place before we got some conversations going, so I appreciate you being at your best behavior.

Kelvin Crosby: 2:47

You got me on my toes there, AnnMarie, because when I met you I was trying to figure out is this lady deaf or not, or just I wasn't sure because I couldn't see you. And then and then you started talking to me and then you said, Kelvin, speak slower so I can read your lips. I'm like, oh yes, I'll start signing. And of course my signing is garbage. I can do a little bit.

AnnMarie Killian: 3:18

Oh, your signing's not garbage. I'm impressed. I mean, if you don't use it every day, you naturally may experience some loss of memory, but I'm concerned that you don't use it every day. You do pretty well and you're laughing at yourself because you think I'm just feeding you.

Chris Maher: 3:43

This is going to be an amazing episode. Before we started recording, we had about 10 minutes of fantastic banter going back and forth and also figuring out all the technology for this, because so for our audience, as everybody knows, Kelvin is deaf/ blind, AnnM arie is deaf. Kelvin, who is the amazing technological wizard behind this whole podcast, has had to set up a few things on the back end so we can capture everything for ourselves, but also so we can communicate the most effective way. So we've got transcription and captioning and Kelvin is using a couple of different mixers on the back end so he'll be able to edit. It's just awesome and I'm so excited for this.

Chris Maher: 4:30

As we get into things, AnneMarie, why don't you give people a little bit of your personal background? And I'd love for you to start off with your personal background and connection to disability and specifically the deaf community. And once you do that, I'm going to tell a couple of wonderful stories about you and how you've been so generous and kind to me as I've embarked on this journey. But let's start with your personal background, about your connection to the deaf community and what it was like growing up within your family.

AnnMarie Killian: 5:03

Thank you, Chris. Well, first and foremost, I'm very proud to claim that I am a native of Minnesota. I need to make that clear up front. I will tell you as a deaf woman, oftentimes people will ask me which country I am from because of this so-called deaf accent and I will say I'm actually from the deaf- land and they will say well, where is that on the map? Now I'm picking up on my humor. But then after they see me grin from ear to ear, they realize I'm just teasing them. But a little bit about my background..

AnnMarie Killian: 5:46

I, as I mentioned earlier, I hail from Minnesota and I'm a byproduct of a hearing family. I have three brothers and three sisters, and my parents as well were hearing. They did not become aware of my deafness until the age of four and a half. The joke aside has always been that my siblings would tell my parents she's just stubborn, she's a brat, she doesn't want to listen and so forth. And I'm sure some of that is true. So I will admit to that. However, when I went to preschool screening, they informed my parents. The audiogram showed that I was profoundly deaf. So at that age, of course, coming from a rural area with little or no services available for children with disabilities, my parents were advised that if they put me through military and I mean military speech therapy, that I would be successful. And they followed that direction, however, not recognizing that while learning how to speak is important, what's even more important is having the social skills to be able to interact and be engaged. So oftentimes, many of our family events were filled with darkness and despair and isolation, trying to communicate and be engaged with the family.

AnnMarie Killian: 7:04

So at the age of 16, I decided to drop out of high school. I was frustrated and didn't see any point in pursuing academics. One of the drawbacks of the academics was they would announce where you rank academically and out of the class of 96, I was always up in the 89, 90 percentile. And one gentleman, Bruce Drakeley, changed my life, who was from vocational rehab. So if anybody from VR is listening to this podcast, please know the work that you do is so powerful and truly holds the key to unlocking an individual with a disability, or even without a disability, to success.

AnnMarie Killian: 7:48

So they recommended the Minnesota Academy for the Deaf. And, of course, having grown up in a hearing environment, even though I was considered oral, I went to a deaf school but I did not know sign, so I also experienced isolation there. So I didn't know where I fit in. But long story short, I learned American Sign Language at the age of 15. And after a couple of years at the academy, where I did very well, successfully, I returned home to mainstream and I graduated in the top 10 of my class. I was number three.

AnnMarie Killian: 8:22

So that story in and of itself has always inspired me to be a leader, an advocate, a mentor, to help guide, especially youth, next generation youth.

AnnMarie Killian: 8:34

I'm very passionate about and setting the expectation that, while smooth seas do not create skillful sailors, we all know that right. So, with that being said, I got so heavily involved in advocacy and been in that capacity in a for-profit environment, working almost 20 plus years in the field of interpreting operations, whether it's from a human resources or operations background, and my last position before joining TDI was chief marketing officer. I absolutely love marketing and storytelling, so now I'm the TDI for Access as the first female CEO of the organization. So I'm really honored to be a part of their mission, which our primary core focus is fostering accessibility and inclusion in the ICT space, which stands for information communication and technology. So I spend a lot of time at The Hill in collaboration with other consumer organizations who play a vital role in navigating necessary changes that we need to see in the policy space to promote that accessibility, and I absolutely love what I do. I'm just so honored to be able to work with individuals who share my passion, such as you two, and so that's a little bit about my background.

Kelvin Crosby: 9:55

I mean that's beautiful, I mean I had no idea that was your story. And I mean I've only met you once and we had a blast. And as I kind of think about your story, it's very similar, some of the struggles that I had as I lost vision and then also lost was born hard of hard of hearing, and just that journey like all right, am I going to give up, but keep on moving forward. And I think would you say, AnneMarie, that the battle of just saying I can keep moving forward, to live beyond this challenge, is the first step to be able to change the world.

AnnMarie Killian: 10:41

I believe each and every one of us, as individuals, have the power to navigate through our journey. You know, we hear the cliche that life is 10% of what happens to you and 90% of how you react to that. I will be the first to support that cliche. I believe in that. Our father, you know, with a family of seven, we were economically challenged and as a result of that, despite the hardships that we went through, our parents you would never know that we fit that bracket of being economically challenged. They were the most incredible, positive people who always embrace the concept that life is what you make it. Life is what you define it. And it doesn't mean that it's an easy journey. So anytime there were challenges, my father's response to me was always so what's the solution, Ann Marie? And I went, you know, especially as a young child growing up, you know, finger pointing he said no, no, no, no. That's not what I'm asking. What is the solution to this circumstance? Because we do have choices. We may not like our choices, but we do have the ability and freedom to select those choices.

AnnMarie Killian: 11:50

So, I personally, people will often ask me if you could change anything, Ann Marie, in your journey, what would that be? And I had to ponder that for a moment. And I responded with I wouldn't change a thing. It's made me who I am today. My character and life in and of itself has given me the tools that I need to thrive in this realm that is predominantly abled and, quite frankly, I had also been asked about having ever considered getting a cochlear implant.

AnnMarie Killian: 12:26

For me personally, no, because I don't see my deafness as a disability. I see it as part of my ethnic identity, and that's another concept that's hard for people to grasp because we don't represent the majority. So therefore we meet the minority bracket and therefore it must be catastrophic situation to be in I. My deference, has created the character that I am and I wouldn't change that firm thing. And I'm going to empower others who encounter challenges in life and recognize especially. We have a white canvas in front of us and we could pick any paintbrush in any colors we want to navigate, but it doesn't mean it will be easy, and I'm not an artist by any stretch of means. I can't even use a ruler to draw a line, let alone paint a canvas. But I'm always bold and willing to take risks and challenges and learn from those experiences.

Chris Maher: 13:19

I love it, anne-marie, and what you said resonates so much with me. Two things. One is, and having raised two daughters with disabilities, one intellectual and developmental and the other physical, people with disabilities, whatever that disability is, to be adaptive, you have to learn how to adapt and they have to learn how to problem solve. And so, to your point, I've many times been meeting someone for the first time and they ask me about my family and I might be talking about my daughters and might mention that, oh, my daughter has intellectual developmental disabilities, and for many people the first reaction is, oh, I'm sorry. And they get this look on their face. I'm like, don't be, my daughter's amazing. My daughters are both incredible and we wouldn't change a thing. Don't be sorry, they're gifts. And so that what you were talking about resonates so much. when When I met Amory AnnMarie it was the fall, it was October of 2023.

Chris Maher: 14:15

And I saw you on a panel at M-Enabling and I reached out to you afterwards on LinkedIn to connect, cause I was just so impressed by what you were talking about and how you're carrying yourself and I was new to getting Samaritan off the ground. And then we connect on LinkedIn and then we had a Zoom call. And you taught me two really valuable lessons on that call. And you were incredibly kind and generous. One was, through our communication via email and LinkedIn, you coordinated having an interpreter for our Zoom call that we would have in the coming week and you really managed that process. And I'll be honest, and you and I have talked about this, you were the first deaf person that I had had a Zoom call with where there was an interpreter. And when we got on the call, I said "an I ask you some questions about you know how we coordinate the call? You're like please. And I'm like what could I have done better or how could I have been more helpful? And I was really nervous about asking that. And your response was first of all, thank you for asking. We appreciate that very, very much and don't ever be afraid to ask.

Chris Maher: 15:30

And number two is and I probably had made a comment about like, what could I have done to make the call better for you, and you said, well, it's really for us, because this is a call between the two of us, so any sort of accommodation is for us. It's not for one person, it's for both people. And that was a huge learning for me and really like an aha moment, and I have told that story to dozens and dozens of people since. And then the second part was how you helped me understand, and you've touched on it before, about your, how you were raised in a family of people, of hearing people, but then about cochlear implants and that decision. But you told me the story about you and your husband and how he is culturally deaf and you are not, and that story also resonated with me so much and it really speaks. It's really, I guess, a metaphor for all of disability because it is so nuanced, right, but would you mind sharing that story about you and your husband?

AnnMarie Killian: 16:35

Sure, absolutely so. My husband, my amazing husband, Kenny, when I was talking about him being culturally deaf. Kenny attended the Deaf Academy at the young age of four and lived at the academy pretty much his entire academic career. You would see his family on the weekends. So one of the things that I educate people on that's surprising to many is you actually have a deaf culture? Yes, we do. We have a vibrant culture. Yes, we do. We have a vibrant culture that's filled with language, humor, history, values, norms, even jokes. I won't tell them on this call, but we do have jokes.

AnnMarie Killian: 17:21

So when I met Kenny, you know his first language being ASL, and that was another component too, especially educating my family, is that American Sign Language is often misconstrued for being English, and it's not. It's a conceptual and visual language that has its own linguistic rules. So when he and I communicate with one another, we jokingly say that sometimes we need to get an interpreter for our conversations. It's not because we need counseling therapy, wink, wink, wink. Well, you know I'm just being, you know, funny here, but sometimes we need to take that extra step to communicate with one another. And so, with him being culturally deaf some of the behaviors and norms that he's accustomed to I had to learn, believe it or not, because it's such things as maybe tapping. You know I wasn't used to that evasion of my space with a lot of tapping. You know a lot of that was used to more of the eye contact.

AnnMarie Killian: 18:21

So we've really taken some time to educate, you know, educate loved ones and family and members, especially when it comes to accessibility. Like Chris had mentioned, it's not uncommon for people to say do you need us to get a sign language interpreter for you? And my response is often you know, thank you so much, but no, but you do need to get an interpreter for us. And of course that leaves them a lot and say, well, because we both need the interpreter for this communication process. But I understand why they do ask that, because that's the way that we are conditioned in life is to help the others, the less fortunate, the those with the disabilities. So I recognize that's a behavior and conditioning that's been imposed by our society.

AnnMarie Killian: 19:10

So, as an individual with a disability, it's my responsibility to educate, to spread awareness, not to ridicule, not to remind them of the ignorance, because if they don't know, they don't know, they don't have that level of visibility and exposure. So I really believe every day that people wake up with good intentions, they want to do well by everyone that they meet. But I think sometimes we can be very quick to make a judgment on someone who asks questions, and that saddens me. We should never do that. It's back to what my father said, you want to be a part of the solution, take the time to educate and be a part of the solution. So, having said that, the culture in and of itself is so beautiful and so eccentric and I'm very proud to be a part of that Does that help explain about the culture?

Chris Maher: 19:59

Yes, thank you very much.

Kelvin Crosby: 20:09

What has always been amazing as I got into the deaf culture I really should say the deaf blind culture, because that's its own set of culture as well and when I got into that is learning how to navigate that world, how to, how to communicate, how to interact, but how to really start making change. How can I make change for the deaf/blind community?

Kelvin Crosby: 20:34

And as you, AnnMarie, were talking about advocating for change and for the deaf community, and this is where, as individuals with disabilities, or I just I love to say challenges, because they're just challenges in life that we take one step at a time. And one thing I have realized is education is the key and telling them the beautiful story of your journey and telling them how my story does not necessarily relate to everybody, but it's a hint by creating universal access for all. And, AnneMarie, as you have been going into advocacy and doing this for over 20 years, tell us a little bit about where you've seen kind of the DeafBlind community, the Deaf community, the blind community, other disabilities, intellectual disabilities, all of the things. It's starting to kind of create this universal way to access the world.

AnnMarie Killian: 21:53

You use the key word universal, and that in and of itself is a real hot topic across all disability spaces. Because how do you define universal? Universal has its own criteria. When you're working with product developers, they have this criteria that they follow for determining what is considered universal. And the interesting thing is, when we're trying to do universal design, what we oftentimes, I think, overlook is the fact that it actually can benefit people in general. It's not just targeting and designated for people with disabilities. So a good example of that is captions. Recent study shows that over 80% of hearing people rely on captions. But yet, we're pushing for policy to make it available as a standard within the broadcasting, within the mainstream, in the circulation.

AnnMarie Killian: 22:48

So oftentimes we get the question of who does this benefit? And I had a recent conversation just on that topic alone. It wasn't relevant to captionings, but just to be to stay within the space of transparency without violating any details that are not available to the public. But oftentimes when I meet with congressional leaders, they will say you know, is this a universal design that will benefit you all? And my response is our goal is not to just benefit the community of people with disabilities. Our goal is to benefit everyone. And he said well, how does this benefit me? And I said well, first of all, I'm sure that in your lifetime you have met someone or know someone or have a family member or friend who has a friend, at some point if you look our statistics one in four people in the U. S. has a disability, right. So that's the first thing. The second thing I said, if I may be fully transparent, if you look at the stats from the World Health Organization, it's a given fact that as we become more wise notice I use the word more wise, not older I like to think we're getting more wise than to say we're getting older.

AnnMarie Killian: 24:01

But there is an onset of some form of disability. It can be cognitive, mobile, sensory, mental health, et cetera. And we are probably, and I'm sure, Kelvin I love your thoughts on this, we are probably the only minority group that able individuals will join one day. Okay, be forward thinking. And so universal design, Kelvin, is challenging, because I mean, think about what you're doing with your prototype. You have to possibly think of every possible scenario on me, and that's not always every person, it's not one size fits all, but if you engage people at the table and they represent diversity and they bring key concepts to the table for development. That's a great start. But I think we restrict ourselves often in our innovation process because we're only thinking about this targeted group. We need to expand that to include others with abilities.

Kelvin Crosby: 25:07

I love how you explain that and let me give you guys an example. The See Me Cane, because I wasn't only just thinking about the blind or the visually impaired community by providing them a cane, but I was thinking about the people that are going to see the cane but do they have a disability, like if you have epilepsy and you are prone to seizures.

Kelvin Crosby: 25:37

The light can be an issue and that's something that I've been really working on is what light strategy that can still provide defensive walking for visually impaired individuals but as well protect the people that see the See Me Cane from hurting themselves or hurting their eyes or hurting them by having a seizure or any other challenges that they might face. And this is where the whole universal access for all is. When we think about innovating for products and services and software and different things like that, we find that when we think in universal, we start seeing more opportunities that can really grow the economic growth, the individual growth and the universal growth. And that's the part that I love about where we're going. And I always say if you can solve for deaf/blindness, you can pretty much solve for the world.

AnnMarie Killian: 26:42

What are you implying, Kelvin? Please expand on that. This is hammering you. Elaborate What do you mean by that comment?

Kelvin Crosby: 26:50

If you can solve for deaf/blindness, you can really solve all the communication challenges and all the navigation challenges of the world.

Kelvin Crosby: 27:02

When you look at that, because if you think about it, if you can't see and you can't hear, those are two main senses that people use on a daily basis. And so if you create the world around us in regards to mental illness and other intellectual disabilities and different things, what I have found in all of my projects that I've ever worked on, that focus on the deaf blind side, it really makes a huge difference when I start from the deaf blind spot. So whether that's caption, whether that's navigation, whether that's accessing the web, whether that's colors, whether that's in communication with somebody in the world or trying to know what the steps I need to take to go to point A to point B, just different things like that. Like you can start seeing where the problem, like you're seeing the problems and now, if you can start seeing where the problem, like you're seeing the problems and now if you can solve for that, then you can start creating this big tree, I call it, and create a bunch of fruits out of that, and so that's how I see it.

AnnMarie Killian: 28:19

Kelvin, I definitely agree with you on that and I believe through that process you identify even expand opportunities. Well said. One of the things you know, as you were talking about being deaf/blind. Just full disclosure. I had a situation a couple years ago where I had a retinal detachment. So I was blind in my right eye. And interesting about that happening is that just a couple months before that, I was having conversations with my board about serving the deaf/blind community, who I believe are severely underrepresented in my opinion, underserved. And they truly do not have a deep appreciation for the challenges that they go through. And then, two months later, I became blind in one eye and went through a journey of about a year and a half. And let me tell you that experience in and of itself gave me such a deep appreciation for the challenges that come with navigating, you know, whether it's mobility or transportation and etc. And so it takes me back to my experience when I was at the Deaf Academy.

AnnMarie Killian: 29:32

Across the street was the Blind Academy and, believe it or not, we did sports together. Yes, blind and deaf people do play sports. In fact, I was quite lucky, probably wouldn't have to play professional, but I chose to go dancing instead. But anyway, I said to my friend her name was Marla, and I said, if you had a choice and of course she's got her headset on, she's blind and she's just singing. And I'm looking at her and I said I'm curious, if you had a choice between being deaf and blind, what would you choose?

AnnMarie Killian: 30:07

And of course her and her vibrancy said oh, Ann Marie, I would remain blind, I would never give up my music, I would never give up what I hear. And how about you? And I said well, Marla, I could never give up my vision, the beauty. You know, so we're describing what we value and can appreciate. There's a lot of beauty in that. So I had an even deeper. While I'm still deaf, I couldn't put on a headset and listen to music while I was going through this journey. But I had such a deeper appreciation of the challenges and I think that we, just as individuals and as humans, whether we have a disability or not, need to just pause and really reflect on what we should be grateful for and that there is no barrier, no obstacle, no challenge that will define us, and so that's easy to fall to that. So I appreciate you sharing your process and your perspective on the universal design and how we can expand that to better serve everyone involved, and that's not easy.

Chris Maher: 31:21

Two things that you both touched on. Lived experience is so critically important in all of this. But, as you just so nicely outlined, AnneMarie, our lived experiences are all slightly different or provide a unique perspective and something you said earlier in the work that you're doing or have been doing for 20 years, and especially in TDI. So it's critically important that we get people with those different lived experiences, thus those different perspectives, at the table together, because that's the way that we're going to come up with the best solutions for everybody, right, that whole idea of universality. The other thing that you've both touched on as you've been speaking over the last several minutes, is navigation. And navigation the meaning of that in a few different ways getting from point A to point B, to navigating your daily tasks, to just navigating the world as a person with a certain type of disability or not. This is a little bit of a segue, but, AnnMarie, you and I were talking the other day.

Chris Maher: 32:27

The work you're doing at TDI is a lot about navigation, and what I mean by that is you're dealing with policymakers, regulatory bodies, the government and different branches of government local, federal, etc. And your job is to figure out how to work with all of those groups, whether they are blue or red, or Republican or progressive or conservative or moderate, etc. Your job is to figure out how to work with all of it. That's a massive navigational task. Can you speak a little bit about that process that you have to do, regardless of what administration is in place at any given time, and then maybe touch on a few of the kind of maybe important initiatives that you're working on today?

AnnMarie Killian: 33:12

Sure, sure. Well, first and foremost, one of the common things I hear about TDI, as far as perception that we bring value in, is our neutrality Meaning. We really believe strongly in the importance of giving everyone the space to speak, to share their thoughts and, as we all know so well and not just because of today's administration and has been an ongoing behavior there's always going to be differences of opinion, there's going to be different agendas, different goals and et cetera. So what I've learned in the policy sector is first, earning respect, earning mutual respect. By earning that mutual respect means agreeing to disagree. Going into a meeting full head-on with rage or anger because something does not exist will not bring you anywhere. I have found that it's not because of TDI's philosophy, but in collaboration, working with other consumer organizations, there's power in numbers. There truly is power in numbers. To go in individually does not bring the same results as you do collaboratively. So we do spend a lot of time navigating the space with others. So we work closely with the American Foundation for the Blind, American Council for the Blind, Perkins School for the Blind, Deaf and Quality, National Association for the Deaf, Communication Services for the Deaf. So we work collectively, but we also reach out beyond that. We talk with agencies dealing with older Americans. Older Americans are impacted by what's happening today and as well as military veterans, and so we're trying to take the initiative to really get grounded.

AnnMarie Killian: 34:59

Because, again back to what we were talking about earlier, the universal design, the one size fits all, does not apply, but what we do know is that communication is a human right, access is a human right, and that's what drives our approach on the policies. So, for example, we've had a lot of policies this year that were focused on ng-911 accessible services for emergency situations. The most recent policy that we did was on the label of that filing was delete, delete, delete. And what that meant was is the FCC was inviting our community and stakeholders to get feedback if there were any regulations that could be deleted, and, as you know, that's a big initiative this year in the administration is deregulation, and so we did. You know, instead of becoming defensive, we did, with a fine-tooth comb, go through all of the regulations that currently exist, and very few of them do we agree should be deleted, and those that were recommended to be deleted, are obsolete, meaning they no longer have any application.

AnnMarie Killian: 36:10

So we truly believe that maintaining relationships with those policymakers and decision makers is so vital to this process. We don't get anywhere by openly criticizing the administration or any policy maker. You won't get anywhere with that. So if we can create a safe environment and space for all to have dialogues, that's where we're seeing our greatest successes on that. And sometimes it comes down to you have to choose your battles and we haven't had to choose yet.

AnnMarie Killian: 36:43

I've been very proud of what our collaboration has done collectively in pushing for results. Right now, the biggest issue that we are working on is the CVTA, Communications Video Technology Advocacy Accessibility and that bill actually was originally known as CVAA, which was passed in 2010. But in a nutshell, CVTA is all about access across all mainstreams. You know it goes from captioning to audio descriptions even, etc. But what our challenge today is we have not been able to secure bipartisan support. We have a Democratic support from Markey's office. Senator Markey has been so instrumental in this process. I'm excited to share,

AnnMarie Killian: 37:30

It's not firm yet, but we're seeing traction, believe it or not, through dialogues with the Republican parties in each individual office, to share our learnings, and our approach has been we want to make you aware of what this can do for everyone, not just people with disabilities. And so I believe, and I don't want to jinx this process, but what we're finding is that the Republican parties from the different offices are talking about coming together as one and support as part of the bipartisan support.

AnnMarie Killian: 38:04

So it's all about strategic. It's understanding who you're working with, and a lot of times, the people that we work with have someone either within their family or a loved one that has a disability, and they're the ones that truly resonate. So we try to capture that navigation and bringing in the right people to the discussions, and it's not always easy, but it's rewarding because, at the end of the day, we do see progress, and I think that's what we need to keep our focus on. Is progress, not the finish line. If we aim for the finish line, my fear is we will not make any traction. So if we can make progress, that can help to evolve and bring us to where we need to be.

Chris Maher: 38:44

Anne-Marie, I think that's a super smart approach to the work that you and your organization are doing. It's a huge credit to your leadership and how you're driving the organization and, as you just said, usually in in life, progress is better than perfection, right? So we need to keep that in mind.

Kelvin Crosby: 39:01

I I think one of the biggest things working with bipartisan and really working on those stories, working on those unification, because, at the end of the day, our mission is to create everybody to have access, and so you're gonna have to have bipartisan support.

AnnMarie Killian: 39:22

One thing that I do believe that is very important is just really creating a safe space that it's okay to have a difference of opinion.

AnnMarie Killian: 39:31

And so how do we collectively come together and find a win-win-win for all and it's's not just win-win but win-win-win, because it's not just me, it's not just you, it's others right. And that's not an easy task at all and it's definitely not. But TDI will be the first to tell you, humbling, that our success is not because of TDI. Our success is because of the stakeholders that we work with. We work with pro bono firms that have been largely instrumental in our filing efforts. We could not do this alone. I mean, one year alone we had about a half a million just in pro bono work that was invested in filing. So we are busy, but we could not do it without some of our pro bono firms who have been so instrumental and, of course, the collaboration with the other consumer organizations that have highly influential stakeholders involved who guide us through that process. I mean one, notably Karen Pell Strauss, who as a civil rights attorney she wrote her book, she was very involved in the ADA. She's been a tremendous value to our discussions. You have Deaf Equality, you know Zanen and Howard Rosenblum have also brought a lot of their perspectives, and then, of course, the other consumer organizations.

AnnMarie Killian: 40:49

So I'm learning every single day. I don't have the answers for everything and I'll be the first to tell you if I don't know something I will bluntly say you know, that's an excellent question. I do not have an answer. I don't know if I'll have one by tomorrow, but I will, you know, do some further research or further findings on that. But it is policy. You either love it or you hate it. and just, and for me, I just. It fuels my energy and fuel my passion, even though there are times I just think wow, all day and determine we're going to navigate through that process and I don't always have answers for that, but I have a team of people who would work together.

Kelvin Crosby: 41:39

Yeah, so back in 2009, I went to Capitol Hill and was doing advocacy work for the deaf/blind community and we were working on a bill called the COPE bill, and it was a telecommunication initiative and to give access for everybody with deaf/blindness, deaf and visually impaired individuals as well, so that way, everybody would have access.

Kelvin Crosby: 42:06

And this is where, as AnneMarie was telling her story and telling about what she's doing today, like, it brought back memories for me, realizing the work that we do to move forward. It can happen together, and with that bill Senator Markey was part of that bill. In 2009 the Telecommunication Initiative Act got passed, and that was one of the biggest success for us for the deaf, the deaf/blind and the visually impaired community, and this is where it was the first time for deaf/blind people to have really a law to have access to telecommunications. And so this is why it's so important that we continue to advocate and to continue to keep working forward on growing and creating more access for all.

Chris Maher: 43:13

AnnMarie before we let you go, we would be remiss if we did not let you spend a few minutes to talk about this amazing event that you are involved with this coming July, around the 35th anniversary of the ADA. So would you spend a few minutes letting everybody know about what you're working on?

AnnMarie Killian: 43:30

Absolutely. Do you have until Christmas? Now let me just be real brief. So Wawa bility is an event that originated approximately two and a half years ago. It's been a long-standing planning process. The visionary behind Wawa bility is Warren Wawa Snipe and, just to be clear, he's not affiliated with the Wawa convenience store. He wanted to make sure that we always share that with everyone, because oftentimes we do get the question oh, are you affiliated with the Wawa convenience store? We are not.

AnnMarie Killian: 44:05

So to make a long story short, you know I'm sure you would all agree that a lot of conferences that we attend either tend to be very topic focused. So, for example, conference may be just only on employment, another conference might be just on technology, but rarely do we ever see an opportunity to bring in arts, media and entertainment. We also rarely ever see multiple topics come into one platform. So for Wawa bility it's a hybrid model. We will be holding a two-day summit, from 11 to 4, and the summit will cover five tracks. It will be on technology, advocacy and policy, E3, which represents education, employment and entrepreneurship. And then the last two equally important is health and lifestyle. And last but not least is arts, media and entertainment. So we originally had this set up as an in-person conference, but because of the landscape of what we're seeing today, and the impact on the economy, we agreed that we would host the summit virtually so that we can expand our reach and position people to be able to join globally. So we will be live streaming the summit in the heart of the Anthem, which is located in DC at the Wharf. Very excited.

AnnMarie Killian: 45:25

We're working closely with the production company, Foodog Productions, and come from multiple years of broadcasting. They, along with our sponsors tremendous sponsors are making this summit possible. But also the entertainment Friday night is comedy night and then Saturday night we're going to take this opportunity to celebrate the 35th anniversary of the ADA. How that entertainment is coming to life is that all performers have disabilities. So, yes, people with disabilities are comedians. Yes, people with disabilities can sing, can dance. We're even bringing in the Omnium Circus, which is a plethora of different individuals with various disabilities will be a part of this landscape. So we believe that we're offering an opportunity to bring a stage and a platform all in one space. Incredibly exciting. You can find the information on our website, www. wawaability2025. com. You will see the opportunity to get tickets for the entertainment or you could register to attend the summit. We love to invite you all to come. It's a celebration. It's a reminder of who we are and where we're going moving forward. Same thing with TDI.

AnnMarie Killian: 46:42

We're very involved in this effort, working closely with Wawa and his team. We will be hosting the summit aspect of it. Chris here is one of our speakers. He's going to be moderating a session on Design, Capital, Impact and that is on future startups of individuals with disabilities. So we're really excited to just have a packed schedule of exciting topics, including our forefathers of the ADA, Tony Cruello, Tom Harkin, Steny Hoyer and more. They will tell you up front, thousands of people were involved in the passing of the ADA and not possible to include them all, but we will be giving a lot of storytelling. We'll be involved in this two-day event. So we're excited and we welcome you all to join us.

Chris Maher: 47:27

That just sounds absolutely amazing and I can't wait to be there, not only for my panel, but to stay for the whole event and the performances. AnnMarie, before we let you go. You just shared how people can find out more about Wawa bility. What if people want to learn more about you and TDI for Access and the work that you're doing? How can they find that?

AnnMarie Killian: 47:49

Well, they could go to our website, which is www. tdi4access. org, and it's spelled together. Oftentimes our name is spelled separately and it's not TDI separate from Access, it's actually all together. So TDI forA ccess. org. You will find information on our website. We're actually undergoing construction. We're going to have a new facelift. I'm really excited about it. I was hoping to get it up and running before Wawability, but please do. You can subscribe to our newsletter. You will receive communications. We have a TDI pulse which is sent out twice a year to get the pulse of what's happening in our landscape. Then, of course, we have the TDI dispatch, which is more of an FYI alert "Be aware of this and that's usually distributed on a monthly basis. So go to our website at www. tdiforaccess. org and you will find additional information on TDI.

Chris Maher: 48:45

Well, Anne-Marie, this has been such a joy and a pleasure. Thank you for joining us and we hope to talk to you again very, very soon.

AnnMarie Killian: 48:54

Thank you so much again. It was such a pleasure to be with you both today. Thank you.

Kelvin Crosby: 48:59

Thank you so much, AnneMarie, for being on the Investing in Accessibility. And this wraps up our podcast and, as I always say, go live beyond your challenges and we'll see you in two weeks.

Kelvin Crosby: 49:24

Thank you for listening to Investing in Accessibility, a Samaritan Partners podcast where we invest in change for accessibility, not wait for change. If you want to follow us, you can find us on YouTube or LinkedIn at @Samaritan Partners. If you would like to invest in Samaritan Partners, email Chris at chris@samaritanpartners. com. If you'd like to learn more about us, go to www. samaritanpartners. com. You can take the first step in investing in change by giving us five stars and sharing this podcast with everybody that you know, so we can spread the word, so that we can give access to all by Investing in Accessibility.