Kelvin Crosby: 0:06

Welcome to Investing in Accessibility, a Samaritan Partners podcast. We're not waiting for change, we're investing in it. Join us as we speak with entrepreneurs and thought leaders that are focused on creating a more accessible world.

Kelvin Crosby: 0:29

Hey, so good to see you, even though I can't see you. It's another beautiful day in the neighborhood and I'm so excited that you're here at Investing in Accessibility and I'm your host, Kelvin Crosby, and I got my co-host, Chris Maher. Man, how you doing, man?

Chris Maher: 0:43

I'm good, Kelvin. It's good to see you and to be with you again, my friend. How have you been?

Kelvin Crosby: 0:48

I'm doing good. I haven't seen you for one minute.

Chris Maher: 0:51

I know, I know we took a little brief hiatus because we were both doing some traveling, but it's good to see you bud.

Kelvin Crosby: 0:57

Yep, I'm super excited that as we get closer to some of the launches about sharing what that's going to be, so to hint people, some good things coming in the future. But let's get into today's guest. This guy, he's a sensei? I'm trying to think, wow, ooh, is this going to be curious? I'm curious. So tell us a little bit about our guest.

Chris Maher: 1:23

Sure. So I had the good fortune of being introduced to our guest today through a mutual contact, probably about a year and a half or so ago, and that was just such a wonderful, serendipitous moment for me, because our guest is a accessibility sensei. Someone has coined that for him, he did not coin that himself. And a master connector. He has been so generous and so kind to me as I've gotten the Samaritan Fund off the ground and we became fast friends and continue to collaborate and talk very often, and so, without further ado, let's welcome our friend, Larry Goldberg. Larry, welcome to the show.

Larry Goldberg: 2:03

Hello Kelvin, hello Chris, thanks for inviting me.

Chris Maher: 2:06

It's our pleasure, it's great to have you here today.

Chris Maher: 2:07

And so, as you know, Larry, you and I had dinner in New York a week or so ago and we're talking about what topics we might talk about when you come on the podcast.

Chris Maher: 2:18

And I think the first thing we should start off with, because I think your background is very unique, around your career and lived experience over the last several decades as it relates to disability and accessibility. And you have a really wonderfully unique background in my mind which has led into your work in more recent years, which is very focused on advising and mentoring startups. And so that's going to be the second half of our conversation, or probably the bulk of our conversation today. We're going to dig into kind of the startup environment and really pick Larry's brains on his experience mentoring and working with startups and I think some of the kind of the takeaways, the good, the bad and maybe the ugly of, you know, being an entrepreneur with a startup in this space and just the trials and tribulations and the landscape you have to navigate and Larry has a wealth of wisdom and insights there. But let's first, Larry, start with your background, both personal and work over the last several decades, and if you could share that with our listeners that'd be great.

Larry Goldberg: 3:21

Absolutely. And in terms of the term sensei, I don't want to be a cultural appropriator, but from the Far East and Japan a sensei is a teacher and nothing more than someone who can share what they know, particularly in the martial arts, which I do not do. But I started in this world because and so many people come into the accessibility field from so many directions. I started because I love media. Started all the way back in junior high I was making films with Super 8 cameras and then stepped up to video and my intention all along was to be in the field of media, filmmaking and television, radio and I progressed through that and I got jobs as a freelancer. I was on radio, I was a disc jockey if you can hear my voice, of course, but mostly around jazz and eventually got to the point where I really. I was living in Boston. I wanted to work for the unbelievable talented people at WGBH public broadcasting premier station. And I tried to get a job there for years and I'd send in resumes, I'd try to make connections. Couldn't get anything.

Larry Goldberg: 4:36

So I moved to New York, started doing some freelancing in New York and one day in the New York Times, when they used to run Help Wanted ads, this little tiny six-point type said WGBH looking for a manager of their closed captioning operation in New York City. Well, having gone to the University of Southern California and learned about TV technology, I actually knew what closed captioning was, which is the embedding of data in a television signal to turn audio into words. And I applied for the job and basically, in short, they said do you know what closed captioning is? I said yes. They said you're hired.

Chris Maher: 5:14

Larry, how many years ago was that?

Larry Goldberg: 5:16

Oh my God, forty. Nineteen eighty five. So yeah, just hitting four decades.

Kelvin Crosby: 5:24

I wasn't even a thought back then.

Larry Goldberg: 5:27

And from there, as far as I knew, I didn't know anyone in the disability community. Obviously I did, but I wasn't aware of it. I started learning all about the world of deafness, people who are hard of hearing, and words on screen. I then moved to Boston, actually take over the caption center, which is the operation there, where captioning began with Julia Child's French Chef. And from there also then took on the descriptive video service providing audio description for TV shows, and learned about the blindness world. All of this just because I love media and it frustrated me that not everyone had the tools to both create and to enjoy media. I was like we got to democratize this. Around the time I was hitting an anniversary there,

Larry Goldberg: 6:18

The web started taking over and digital media became paramount. And we realized we needed a mechanism for addressing these new technologies and some of the public policy around it.

Larry Goldberg: 6:32

So, with tremendous support from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which is extremely important today, they provided a grant to create the National Center for Accessible Media, an R&D group.

Larry Goldberg: 6:47

We took on R&D in the field of standards development, developing tools, figuring out how to make movies and theaters accessible and networking like crazy with the disability community. And had the chance to get involved in legislation in Congress. First the TV Decoder Circuitry Act in 1990, which I helped draft, and then the Telecom Act in 96, which required captions pervasively.

Larry Goldberg: 7:14

And then the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act, which had massive impact, passed in 2010. I was at the White House with Congressman Markey at the time, stevie Wonder, so many great people, obama signed that bill. The FCC then asked me to chair the subcommittee that would write the regs under that law, which was a blast. And within not a long period of time, Yahoo reached out to me and said now you've done it. You want to come on board and help us comply with this new law that you helped make happen? And I said, absolutely, look the impact and scale you could have with a huge corporation like that, and so I joined Yahoo. I eventually became head of accessibility at Yahoo and found all kinds of opportunities to really scale up.

Chris Maher: 8:05

That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that, Larry. My gosh, just the arc of your experience, really from the early days of accessibility and then all the way through to many of the major policy and regulations that have been in place, is incredible. Kelvin, do you have any initial questions for Larry and his background before we get into some startup-y?

Kelvin Crosby: 8:27

I mean I thought it was interesting you brought up the 21st century telecommunication act. I mean, That was my first legislation bill I ever worked on and I was like when you brought down, like hey, we have something in common. Even though we didn't work together. You probably worked with Mose and and Haben and some of those individuals. They were really heavily involved in the actual push of it.

Larry Goldberg: 8:49

When I was at WGBH, Haben Girma, first deafblind graduate from Harvard Law, was across the river and her interpreter contacted me and said we need to develop some technology so this woman could actually attend classes, and we helped hack together some tech for Haben Girma to help her at that time.

Kelvin Crosby: 9:08

That's awesome.

Larry Goldberg: 9:09

And I should mention also, you talked about lived experience. As you notice, none of this of my story was really about my own personal disability, which I didn't realize I had until my mid-50s, when I was missing almost everything that was going on in meetings and I was like, oh, I hang out with deaf people all this time and all of a sudden I lose my hearing. What happened there? And so now I'm a hearing aid user and I am absolutely having the lived experience. Yep

Kelvin Crosby: 9:40

I mean, and I think that's something that's really interesting in regards to like, as we start developing products and services and as legislation starts going through. I mean, that was one thing when that act went into play, we didn't see how, in some ways, how difficult it was going to be to implement it in the deaf-blind community. We knew how we were going to do it in the deaf community pretty much, and also how we were going to implement it in the blind community, but the deaf-blind community was one of those, nobody understood that Nobody. The people in the deaf-blind community we were super excited, but how were we going to really scale this?

Kelvin Crosby: 10:21

And that was something that I mean we've come a long way since then when that came out. But I was involved in a lot of the I- connect program stuff and all that stuff and I just find I'm curious from your perspective, as this, as that initiative went into play and this is not really on our agenda. But I am really curious and I think this comes to the idea of access for all is what is something that you learned from that initiative and realized, all right, we need to create these legislations, but also really looking at how do we create this universal access for all.

Larry Goldberg: 11:00

So yeah, the challenges, the technological challenges, particularly around deafblindness, were a steep hill to climb. Luckily there were some very active people from that community. An employee at WGBH had Usher syndrome and his name, Carl Richardson, someone who continues to teach me every day, helped us understand what we could do with technology that could address those issues as well. And every new challenge that comes, of course, trying to make media accessible for people with cognitive disabilities is a major challenge. today. We've got a great community of people who want to take it on, ready to grapple, and luckily a lot of it is people who are experiencing those barriers themselves and somehow we come up with solutions each time.

Kelvin Crosby: 11:51

One of the things, that's one of the biggest things that came out of this initiative was we had to figure it out and then, like my company, our whole focus is looking at deafblind first and then innovating from there. And I think that's the thing is because I live that life deafblindness I find myself struggling to get access to information or details, but at the same time, like all right solving those problems.

Chris Maher: 12:22

So, Larry, let's transition a little bit. So you have this wonderful career that was what almost 30 years at the television station. You then got into some really, really important policy work. Then you move on to the corporate world, some time at Verizon, a long stretch at Yahoo, and now you've transitioned to working with startups. How did that transition take place, going from that corporate and policy world into the startup area?

Larry Goldberg: 12:50

Yeah, I think a lot of my career has been guided by luck, fluke and randomness. And whenever young people ask for what my career path was, I was like, oh, I have no idea. Very zigzag. So when I left Yahoo now three years ago, I thought I would start a consulting business, like many have, consulting with major corporations as they go down their journey towards accessibility. And I built a major website, fully accessible, and I realized, as I was about to launch it, I don't want to do that, I don't want to be hustling, particularly with companies who may or may not be all bought in. And around that very same time, I started getting these people, young people, reaching out to me with this classic line, hey, can I pick your brain? And at this point I pictured these birds having eaten basically my entire brain away, nothing left.

Larry Goldberg: 13:41

But I loved what they were doing, I loved their energy, I loved some of the paths they were going down and I thought, oh, I might be able to help some of these folks. Interestingly enough, most of the people I started working with were women, and I can't necessarily explain why that was, not all, but many. And I found out that women in these startups around the field of accessibility, had some of the right energy and the vision and the decision making and resilience to really take things and get it off the ground. And so, as more and more of these people would reach out to me through social media, I started taking some of them on as paid clients, others as an equity advisor and other just because, hey, I was fascinated by what they're trying to pull off and maybe I could help.

Chris Maher: 14:35

I'm really glad you mentioned the work with the female founders, because that was something that I recalled when we first met, that you were talking about how you were working with a group of female founders, which is awesome. So, Larry, thank you for that, and it's I know, I know from talking to many of those entrepreneurs that you work with that the value you bring to the table is immense. That lived experience you have with work and all those years of working in accessibility is helpful in so many ways, and so let's dig into that a little bit, because you, I know, have some strong feelings around startups and developing innovative technologies, around assistive tech, disability tech. But let's dig into that. What should entrepreneurs, what are some of the things they really should be thinking about in that early stage as they're developing assistive tech and disability tech?

Larry Goldberg: 15:24

Yeah, I have to issue a caveat here. I'm approaching this from a point of view that started with closed captioning and today, as we all know, closed captioning is pervasive and I don't know that any of us ever really expected the widespread use of closed captioning in so many communities. Some people talk about the curb cut effect. I talk about the closed caption effect. And the idea that closed captions in essence became mainstream. And you hear the data. We heard Anne-Marie Killian talk about 60 to 80 percent of Netflix users are turning on captions, and so when I talk to an entrepreneur starting a new business, I always want to ask them, aside from the important core audience you develop your tech for, who else could benefit? What is the expanse and scale you could reach? Because investors are wanting to know your numbers and so how big a market can you really be?

Larry Goldberg: 16:28

And if you want to start with the notion of developed for people with disabilities shared with the world? And that's what I tend to ask these folks, because they generally come at it with a heavy mission from their own personal disability or a family member or friend, and I love their ideas and I say OK, and who else might benefit? And how big? And I'm learning all the terms from your investment world, what's your total addressable market? Could it possibly be everyone? So let's think about that. And that's where I do spend time with some of these startups, to think how might we exploit what you've developed for blind people, deaf people, people with mobility disabilities, and say "yes, and.

Larry Goldberg: 17:20

And I always refer back to this wonderful story about the OXO Good Grips kitchen utensils. And it was developed by a husband and wife. The wife had arthritis. They are the best kitchen utensils anywhere and they never advertised that they're good for people with disabilities. But boy, do people with disabilities know. And they're big and they're successful. And what else could you do to be an Oxo in your field is what I tend to ask these folks.

Kelvin Crosby: 17:53

I think it's really interesting that, as you kind of brought up the captioning and all that stuff, I think we're seeing a trend in the Investing in Accessibility podcast that where the growth is happening in access for people with disabilities is in the universal access. And, as you were talking about, can you go get more than just your population that you're trying to serve? Can you help another population in looking at that effect and being able to create access in a way where every person that could benefit from your product or service or software or whatever, they can really gain that access? And I think that's really important that we see is that we're seeing this trend. Oh, I don't know if it's even a trend, it's a movement that is becoming a firm foundation as you start innovating products and services and programs and different things like that. We're starting to see this. So, Chris, why don't you dive in a little bit more with Larry here on where are we seeing everything going?

Chris Maher: 19:17

Great question. I think a phrase, Larry, you just used that I think is really, really helpful, is developed for people with disabilities but shared with the world, or useful to the world. And for venture investors, you're right, part of it is how big is this opportunity? What is that total addressable market? And we did a podcast episode several weeks ago around Exit Business versus Lifestyle Business and these are some decisions that entrepreneurs have to make. Do they want to stay small, grow organically, be relatively self-funded, not take on that professional investment where there are certain expectations that are now put upon you and your business, largely a liquidity event. And those are things I don't think entrepreneurs think about enough or think about thoughtfully enough in that early stage. And so having an advisor and a mentor like you who is pushing them to think about these types of questions, which are critically important, I think is super valuable to them.

Chris Maher: 20:22

I think, as it relates to innovation, there are, I guess I think about it, a couple ways. A term that is used kind of in technology in general is kind of like like dual use. So hey, it's, it's being built, say, for this one specific population, but it's also good for another population, or the broader, the broader community. I think that's where we need more companies that bring that to the table in the disability sector, these early stage startups, because that's where I think we can have some big outcomes or exits. And we need a few of those, right, like we need some unicorns, we need some big acquisitions, we need an IPO, because I think that's going to wake up the professional investment world, the private capital, where we don't have nearly enough in this sector right now, and so we do need some of that. I do think there are a number of companies that can be very successful being more focused on a specific area of disability, say like a Be My Eyes type of type of company. I think they can still do very well and have have a very good outcome for more traditional venture capital investors.

Chris Maher: 21:30

But, Larry, are there any examples that you've seen in your advising and mentoring work that stand out for you, either way, that had a great idea but like it just wasn't big enough and so it stayed kind of more focused and small. Or a company that started out with a specific, you know, an idea for a specific part of the community that over time they realized oh my god, this, this is actually has a much broader application.

Larry Goldberg: 21:56

Yeah, definitely both sides of it and all in between.

Larry Goldberg: 22:00

You know, having come from so many years in the world of non-profits, one of the biggest issues we always would talk about is sustainability. We're doing great by our mission, but are we going to be able to keep going? In the for-profit world, it's beyond sustainability, it's scale and growth. And in the business world, certainly if you're taking outside investment, you really need to prove you can do that. So one of the companies I am very deeply involved in is involved with adding sign language to movies, streaming movies. They're called Sign Up Media. The brilliant idea of a 16-year-old founder, incredible, a great disruptor, and she felt like you can click on a button and get captions on your Disney or Netflix movies, why can't I click on a button and get sign language? Brilliant. She reached out to me to pick my brain. I got very involved, still am, and I also think about, all right, what could spin out from this. So you've got a stream of media, it's got audio, it's got video, it's often audio description, subtitles in 100 languages. Now we want to add another stream of sign language embedded within it. What other things could we do to enhance media that would take off on the technology we're developing? That would be not just for sign language users but for other disabilities or other people who are underserved. And so we are heading in that direction, looking at what other markets this technology we've developed could really address.

Larry Goldberg: 23:38

There's another company. It's a great story. Unfortunately, they're on the back burner right now. This woman who has low vision had developed a concept for people who are at their workplace just being bombarded with texts and emails and Slack and all day long, just distracted, all day long, and she had a way of pulling together all of these strands for the enterprise workplace to help people focus, but make sure that your boss can get through when necessary. She called her company Gashido, and I thought that's some Japanese term. I don't know what Gashido is and she said, no, actually it stands for "get shit done. And I thought, oh, I am in 100% just for that. And that was the kind of development that absolutely could go far beyond the original target market, people with cognitive disabilities or attention deficit disorder, and right now she's in stealth mode, but I love that idea.

Chris Maher: 24:45

Yeah, I think those are two great examples. Larry, in your experience working with startups, are there any, I guess, kind of mistakes or pitfalls or traps that you see they tend to fall into that are easily avoidable? Kind of like those self-inflicted wounds, poor decisions early on that you see consistently that you wish you could tell all early stage entrepreneurs?

Larry Goldberg: 25:21

Yeah, some basic good business practices. It's so basic, but I actually experience some startups who are not responsive. Don't get right back to you. Or I provide an introduction to someone important like Mr Chris Maher or our good friend Gina Kline, and then I never hear from them again. You've got to keep your loop closed. You absolutely got to keep in touch with everyone, because you never know what's going to turn into a piece of gold. And so I think some of it is just behavioral, but certainly others are sort of obvious. We all know this. Talk to your users, and I know Kelvin has run into this I'm sure. Some brilliant college student invents something. This would be great for blind people, absolutely. Oh well, have you talked to blind people? No, no, no, we plan to as soon as we have our MVP. Well, I hope we're done with that. That is just so backwards, but sure I've run into that over and over again.

Kelvin Crosby: 26:21

I mean, I think that's one of my biggest pet peeves is if you haven't done your market research, why bother to start? It's great to have a great idea, but if you haven't done your market research, don't start, because you're going to put a lot of energy, because I'm I'm at the point in my company where I'm ready to be done. I'm ready to be done. I'm over it. But I know that my market research is solid and I know that I'm going to be okay, and I just go back and listen to those testimonials and that's what keeps me moving, knowing that I have a product that keeps me motivated to keep moving forward. And I think that's something so important is that do your market research. See that there's even an interest that they want your product, and I think that is so important.

Chris Maher: 27:20

I think that speaks to what you're both talking about is product market fit, and that starts with talking to the end user. Right? And I think that is critically important. I think a lot of, and this isn't just in the disability sector, I think it's entrepreneurship across the board. You're right Larry, you're like, oh, I think this is a great idea, people are going to love this. But they don't go out and actually speak to the end customer.

Larry Goldberg: 27:41

Who is your real customer? A lot of these startups have total buy- in from the end user and the disability community, a parent of a deaf child, whatever, but they don't intend to sell it to those people. They want to sell it to the enterprise. The enterprise might say nice words about how they want to help the poor disabled person, but that's not going to make their decision. So put yourself in the mindset of this big corporate chieftain who can write checks and really wants to work with you, but you've got to make it really easy for that person, because that's where your business model is focused.

Larry Goldberg: 28:22

Most of what I talk to are people who are looking at B2B, and so one early lesson I learned was one company who's doing tremendously well now was selling themselves on the quality of the output that their users loved how good and clean the output was, and they would charge a little bit more. They were in a competitive industry, but they were all in on quality. And I actually signed a major contract with them when I was at Yahoo. Recently they said they don't push as much on quality as they do on workflow, because the companies they're selling to just want ease of operation. They want to disrupt everything. Maybe they don't really even want to buy something that helps people with disabilities. Make it easy, one click, great portal, order your whatever service it is and move on, and you will sell a lot better to these big enterprises if you just make their lives easier.

Chris Maher: 29:23

Larry, it's a really interesting point you bring up and it reminds me of this past year I was a mentor for an accelerator program at the NYU Business School called Endless Frontier Labs. I was in the digital health group. But what was so eye-opening for me was there was a session where the startups were giving their pitch, it was the beginning of the program. It's the full academic year, but at the beginning of the program they do like an initial pitch and then we mentor them over the course of the academic year, and these are startups, not student-led companies, and then at the end they redo the pitch day. And up front this company was talking about the quality, like, oh, we're better than the competition, and they put up the little magic quadrant of Gartner and they were in the upper right quadrant of that.

Chris Maher: 30:14

And someone, one of the mentors who works in industry, not an investor, works in industry, and it was something related to hospitals. He said, "hey, that's great and it sounds like you are better than anything that's in the market. But that's not what we evaluate on. We evaluate on what would work best for us, in our environment, in our processes and workflow. "So many times he said we don't choose the best solution, we choose the best solution for us, and I think that speaks to what you were just saying, Larry.

Chris Maher: 30:44

The other thing I think this touches on, and Larry I'd love to get your take on this, when you start talking about product market fit and going out and talking to the end customer and the user, two things come to mind for me. One is about including the community. So build it with us, not for us, that whole concept. But also then it gets into the concept of universal design, accessible design, human- centered design, inclusive design. It goes by a lot of different kind of monikers these days, but I'd love to get your take on where your thoughts are on that, on inclusive or universal design.

Larry Goldberg: 31:23

Yeah, back a number of years ago because what I was trying to do basically was make media universally accessible through captioning and description. I didn't want to use the term AT assistive technology because you know that's a Braille display, that's, that's JAWS, that's a separate add on you have to buy. So I tried to disseminate the concept Accessible Mainstream Technology. Build it in. Just make it part of the operating system or the software as is, and it makes everyone's lives so much better. It might also mean that your standalone device is no longer needed and you got to realize you might put yourself out of business if you do it right. Look at the iPhone today. It's got like 100 accessibility features built in for free.

Larry Goldberg: 32:16

It's kind of hard to argue against that. It probably means some companies no longer have much of a market. So the idea of trying to aim towards a universally available or usable technology might mean you're going to be absorbed into the mainstream, which you know in some ways is really a good thing. Especially now that I've been promoting, with many others, this concept of "nothing about us without us. To me is wrong. It's "nothing without us, period, because everything is about us all the us's whether you have a disability or not. So when you're trying to design a new technology, think about the amazing diversity of all the different people, because that's who you want to use it, and you can call it universal if you want, or you can just call it good design.

Chris Maher: 33:12

You know, Larry, I guess, as we wrap up, what would be, I guess two questions. One would be what are your top two or three pieces of advice for startup entrepreneurs in this space? And then I guess the last big question is and you might have just answered it a little bit, but what do you think is out there on the horizon that is going to play a significant role going forward as it relates to assistive tech and accessibility?

Larry Goldberg: 33:43

Well, I think you don't have to tell an entrepreneur it's going to be tough. I think they know that. So to advise that they need to be resilient, that if you fail 49% of the time you're actually winning because 51% says you're doing okay. So, in baseball, if you can get a hit one out of three times, you're on the top of the league. So hooray for that. Also, you know I hear the phrase, "well, in today's environment ooh, in today's environment might not be a good time.

Larry Goldberg: 34:28

I had a really brilliant mentor at one of the top venture capital firms say to me when I was talking about some of these ideas. She said well, you know, it's never a good time to start a business. And you know what? It's always a good time to start a business. So try to ignore that. It's very hard to do. Sure, there are so many headwinds today, but if you got the idea, now's the time. So try to ignore some of that or deal with it. Don't waste a crisis. If you're in the middle of one, use it.

Larry Goldberg: 34:55

Now in terms of what do we have to look at on the horizon? It's too obvious. I'll say it anyway, because in this podcast we haven't said AI yet. So here it is AI. I said it. Of course, for good, for bad, for in between, where's it going? We don't really know what's going to happen, but no one is starting anything these days.

Larry Goldberg: 35:17

You know, if I'm doing handmade shoes, an investor is going to ask me what my AI strategy is. So be ready for that. And can you be unique in that? I think so. I think there's still wide open ways people can think about using AI. And maybe looking to the day, I remember when people say what's your web strategy? So how are you doing online with what you're doing? Well, now you don't even ask such a question. Of course you have a web strategy and an app strategy and a mobile. Well, we will come to that day where you don't ask that question. It's simply built in and think about a few years hence. How will you build that in virtually and visibly? And an investor who says to you what is your AI strategy? You're going to say what are you from 2025? Of course I have one.

Chris Maher: 36:09

Larry, we could talk to you for hours, but we've got to wrap up here. Before we let you go, how can people get in touch with you directly and/ or learn more about your work?

Larry Goldberg: 36:22

Well, I am not a major social media user, only LinkedIn, and it's a kind of a grown up social media. It's not toxic. So that's where you'll find me. Feel free to connect with me, DM me on LinkedIn. Larry Goldberg, you'll recognize me by my white beard and I'd happy to reach and talk to you through there. And you'll see some of my history and other nonprofit startups I've done. And the patents of the couple that I've been awarded. So I think the best way would be through LinkedIn.

Chris Maher: 36:55

Terrific. Well, Larry. Thank you so much, my friend. It is an absolute pleasure, and thank you for spending a little bit of time with Kelvin and me today.

Larry Goldberg: 37:02

My pleasure.

Kelvin Crosby: 37:03

Well, that wraps up Investing in Accessibility and go live beyond your challenges.

Kelvin Crosby: 37:16

Thank you for listening to Investing in Accessibility, a Samaritan Partners podcast where we invest in change, for accessibility, not wait for change. If you want to follow us, you can find us on YouTube or LinkedIn at Samaritan Partners. If you would like to invest in Samaritan Partners, email Chris at SamaritanPartners. com. If you'd like to learn more about us, go to www. SamaritanPartners. com You can take the first step in investing in change by giving us five stars and sharing this podcast with everybody that you know, so we can spread the word, so that we can give access to all by Investing in Accessibility.